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PODCAST OPENER
Welcome to the Inside Insight podcast presented by CR Solutions. At Consolidated Risk Solutions, we are taking our expert knowledge of the insurance world and using it to innovate the industry using technology, groundbreaking thinking and a personal touch. Join us as we talk to masterminds both inside and outside of CR Solutions about how the world of insurance is changing, and how we can be sure to grow along with it. If you have to manage insurance in your work, then you can benefit from the interviews, conversations and insights we’ll be exploring to elevate your business’s success.
INTRO (00:44 – 03:28)
Trevor Casey: Beau, we’re back again for season three.
Beau Lunceford: We are here and we have spent a lot of time over our little summer hiatus getting all of our guests lined up for season three. And we are really excited about the different kinds of faces that we’re going to see. For this season, we’ve got some people who are coming back and we’ve got some new people that we’re talking to. I’m just really, really excited about what the season is going to look like.
Trevor Casey: Me too. And I’m really appreciative to the new faces that we have and of course the faces that are coming back. And it’s really exciting to see what the industry is doing.
Beau Lunceford: And for our people who are coming back, it’s great to see what they’ve been up to since we last talked to them. I think that’s been a big eye-opener for, like to your point, what the industry has been up to since, I guess like sometime, in some cases the last year or so since we’ve seen them last.
Trevor Casey: I mean, like you and I have said before, we try to always have the movers and shakers of the industry. And so those people don’t sit still.
Beau Lunceford: Oh no, they do not. They are wide open.
Trevor Casey: So starting back with a guest that we have had on the podcast before and excited to have back again is Rocio Luna. Rocio has nearly a decade of experience in the insurance and claims management industry. Rocio has established herself as a trusted advisor specializing in workers’ compensation, risk management, and insurance solutions. Currently serving as a client advisor at Acrisure LLC and the owner of Rocio Insurance Services, Rocio has a proven track record of helping businesses navigate complex insurance policies, insurance compliance, and mitigating risk. She began her career as a claims assistant in 2016 and spent seven years as a claims manager, gaining extensive experience in navigating workers’ compensation claims. Witnessing the common pitfalls in claims handling, Rocio developed a strong passion for risk management. She understands its critical role in protecting employees and the significant impact poor risk management can have on premiums. We’re really excited to have Rocio returning on the Inside Insight podcast for this new season of Insights.
Beau Lunceford: And for anybody who has been following Rocio since our last conversation, she is all over the internet. She is continuing to put out just really great content, partnering with companies and other podcasts. She is a wealth of knowledge. And we say that about so many of our guests. But it’s going to be a really great conversation that we’re jumping into today. And I’m very excited for everyone to hear it.
Trevor Casey: Let’s get into it.
Interview (03:31 – 30:00)
Trevor Casey: All right, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Inside Insight. We are here with Rocio Luna, who was one of the top episodes of Inside Insight history. So we figured we’d bring her back and pick her brain a little bit more, see what she’s been up to, because some things have changed as far as her career path and then where she’s at now. So, hey, Rocio, welcome back. Thanks for joining us again.
Rocio Luna: Well, good morning, Trevor and Beau. I’m so excited to be back here. I really enjoyed the first episode. You guys were tons of fun, a lot of energy, a lot of risk management, and definitely the energy you guys bring to the construction industry.
Beau Lunceford: Oh, well, thank you. Well, we enjoy doing this so much. And it’s so great to get to talk to all these different people throughout risk management, construction, insurance, and hear about the different ways that they are absolutely just, oh gosh, buzzword, changing the game. But you so specifically, since our first episode, not saying those two things are related at all, but since we first spoke, you have absolutely been all over my LinkedIn feed. You are everywhere doing everything, talking to all these people, and every single time I see something from you, it is new, it’s insightful, and it’s applicable. Like, everything that you’re doing is really showing people how it is that they can really take control of the risk that they manage as compared to just being respondents to it. So I don’t want to take away too much here, but I’d love to hear about what has been going on with you over the past, I guess, year since we last spoke?
Rocio Luna: Yeah.
Beau Lunceford: Because so much has happened, and I want to hear all about it. So tell us a little bit about what’s going on.
Rocio Luna: Now, literally, I think you guys were, honestly, my first episode on a podcast that I did, like, in X-Mon. And I feel like after that, I blew up. So thanks to you guys, that really got the whole thing going on. But after that, I was on several other podcasts about X-Mons, risk management, claims, and I really have focused in on construction, in a sense, I’m really diving in into the commercial space. And with all the movement and all of that, I actually got myself an opportunity to be at the Burbank Airport Terminal. So when they called me for an incident, I was like, what, me? Like, you have all these people. But, of course, I took the call, and I was like, I can help you out. Like, more than happy. But it’s just like the movement. But going back to your point about risk management, honestly, all contractors have kind of the same incidents across the nation. It’s a little different here and there with the states and maybe the limit requirements and what’s required. But at the end of the day, it’s all about knowing the risk behind construction. There’s a lot to that, especially now dealing with Wraps, OSIPs, certain endorsements. And one thing that I’ve seen is that, obviously, prices are going up, real estate’s up, insurance is up. So a lot of people are trying. Now I feel like people have really tailored into risk management because they’re like, if I can control the risk, if I can control this part of the insurance, which is a big chunk of my business, I could cut back on some of that money. And now I really see people a big focus on safety and risk management.
Trevor Casey: I love that. Those two things go hand in hand. And we always preach, you spoke to OSIPs, we always preach about that the best run OSIPs and CCIPs are ones that truly focus on the safety, which then in hand in hand with risk management, because claims go down. When you have a safe project site, you have a risk manager who’s actually involved walking the project site, discussing with people, why they’re doing something that they’re doing and it’s wrong versus just taking a picture and sending it off to somebody to get them in trouble. You’re seeing that those project sites are so much safer, but then they’re profitable for the owner because they’re not having to pay out fat insurance claims, they’re not having to fight with litigation. So that’s it. I love hearing that. And I love a broker speaking to that because some brokers, they place a program and they kind of move on from it. So it’s a really nice, refreshing topic to speak to.
Rocio Luna: I mean, it goes back into the client and broker relationship and the client broker relationship with the carrier, with the wholesaler or someone like UCR Solutions and making sure that you walk down the path with the client knowing what are the risks in here. And going back to the relationship part, being a broker is more than just giving you a quote and good luck. I’ll like your LinkedIn photos every once in a while, but that’s like anyone could do that. So being a great broker is knowing the risk inside and out and being there for your client. So when an incident happens, you know what to do and how to react to it and making sure at the end of the day that your client is profitable. And obviously that the carrier sees that and they want to continue working with you because nobody wants to pay out a claim. The deductibles are high, the insurance carrier doesn’t want, they don’t want to go into their pockets and pay out the claim. And obviously, anytime there’s a claim, there’s a delay to the project. Even if it’s like a little workers comp thing, it takes time away from the project you have to take the incident report, you have to follow up and AdSense, pay out. And then when you have a construction incident or something goes bad, now you have to like really go back into that and see who is the cause of it. You know with OSIPs, everybody gets pulled into the claim.
Trevor Casey: Speaking to claims, one of the things and I’m just curious what your thoughts are on is I feel like a lot of subcontractors, they’re not sure what to do. So a claim happens, a guy falls or something breaks. They’re just like, freeze, pause. Like, do I take a picture? Do I call somebody? Like, what is your thought on that? Like, how is it with the example of the airport, you were brought in on a claim. Just curious, what you’ve kind of seen in the market with that.
Rocio Luna: That’s a great point. A lot of subcontractors, especially if they’re new to the Wrap and OCIPs idea model, they don’t know how to properly process things. Sometimes they have a little difficulty on how to manage the Wrap. Because in regards to the Wrap, there is a credit, there’s a certain way to report payroll. And then who is the person in charge of that? So I think there is a little misconnection between if it’s the owner controlling the Wrap or if it’s the contractor. Generally, when it’s the contractor, there seems to be more issues versus the owner because the owner usually has more experience of dealing, and they have a larger staff and more people hands-on and no insurance. And then with the general contractor, I kind of see that there might be gaps in miscommunication, maybe the training of how to properly document, collect information. But in that sense, even some, I’ve been in situations where subcontractors have signed a contract and they don’t know what they disagreed onto. And they just said, oh, by the way, this Wrap has this residential exclusion or this Wrap is requiring you to have completed operations and de-endorsement. And offsite, and that’s another thing that some carriers don’t add, depending on what your insurance, where you’re at with that. But we’ve had situations where the subcontractors, their contract is delayed. And you know construction people usually, they wait till last minute or they don’t do it until they need it. I mean, the project’s not started until two weeks, so why buy the insurance?
Trevor Casey: I love to do a firefight.
Beau Lunceford: Oh my gosh.
Rocio Luna: That’s just the nature of the business. That’s just what it is.
Beau Lunceford: And that’s just resonates so deeply, all the things that you’re saying of not reading their contracts and then waiting to the last second. And then it’s like, I’m supposed to start work tomorrow. It’s like, my guy. You’ve had this contract in your hands or even on the other end of it, people finding themselves in positions where it’s like the contract is in their hands today and they need to start work tomorrow. And then having to rush through all those things and get all those requirements met. And then you find yourself in delayed situations. So all of this is just stuff that as CR Solutions people, we hear and we experience all the time.
Rocio Luna: The great things that you guys do is that you guys manage the admin part of the Wrap, which is like I said, for new general contractors who might be just their first project participating in it, they don’t know. So they just think, well, I think my staff will manage it. Or they look at the price and they’re like, does it really require that much? Until they start seeing the certificate of insurance. Until they start seeing, my subcontractor doesn’t meet these requirements. And then they’re like, that makes sense.
Trevor Casey: So speaking to some of these new GCs, as a power broker really who are working with these, you’re very well knowledgeable as far as claims management, how to go about that. What would be some advice that you may give to a new broker or a new general contractor who’s entering into a CCIP or going into an OCIP under an owner to kind of help maybe some of that disconnect with their lower tier subcontractors?
Rocio Luna: Definitely. So if you’re new and going into this Wrap or CCIP, you have to have a great relationship or get with a broker that knows what they’re doing. I mean, I could tell you a situation where I had a general contractor call me saying, I am completely upset with the broker that I have now because this guy cannot tell me, for God’s sake, my deductible. He’s like, my deductible. How do you not know what this is? And he knew about Wraps notes and he’s like, I know I’m supposed to have a credit and I don’t know what the math is. I can’t even trust this guy right now at this point. And he’s like, I’m stuck because I already bought into the policy. So now I’m going to have to weigh it out. Now to reach out to people like you to tell me what it is. And he’s like, obviously, I don’t want to go around and do this, but I have to because the broker that I have right now is just not helping me out. So obviously right from the get-go, if I would have known that, I would have gotten someone like you or someone else construction-versed, this would have never happened. And in that sense, let’s say you don’t have the brokerage or you don’t have much information with that. I would say go on YouTube. I mean, you guys do a lot of podcasts and information about how it works. But honestly, if you just go on Google, go on YouTube, you’ll see little scripts of how it works, what needs to be done, what to expect out of it. So nowadays, definitely lean on your resources. If you don’t have anyone around you, lean on YouTube. You’ll find invaluable information on there.
Trevor Casey: You said something interesting a minute ago that resonated with me in regards to the brokers who are not as knowledgeable as they need to be. And that brings an interesting point that I’ve seen recently where the market is starting to get a bad taste in their mouth to Wrap-Ups. And it used to be due to the administrator or the administrative burden that they were. But now it’s starting to seem more that these brokers that don’t have the knowledge level as someone as you or a broker who focuses only on the construction vertical are really hurting the product as a whole. And I think it’s very valuable to say, if you’re a broker who has an opportunity and says, I don’t know what to do with this. It’s not necessarily a bad thing to call a Rocio and say, hey, I’m willing to split this pie with you. Educate me, show me what to do and really let’s elevate the industry as a whole. Are you seeing that as far as what I described where there’s a little bit of a bad taste or are you seeing brokers reaching out saying like I’m craving this knowledge, give it to me or is they really just kind of crickets?
Rocio Luna: I think it’s more of the first one that like they have an opportunity and they don’t know what to do with it or it’s come to the point where the client is frustrated because the broker keeps coming back with a lot more questions. And I think that’s kind of like the gap that the brokerage may not be getting the right information. Because you have to know what your hard costs and your soft costs are, the overall size of the project, how much it’s worth, the length of it, and then if it’s going to be order patrolled or it’s going to be the general contractor, the subcontractors in it, and also knowing that their subcontractors, the ones that participate in it, their losses are also going to correlate with the price. So I always make that aware to my general contractor saying, hey, by the way, whoever you bring into this, you have to look at their ‘X’ amount, their losses, because that’s going to be a big ratio of how your Wrap is calculated.
Trevor Casey: And that’s an incredible point. A lot of people don’t think that their mod or a claim that they have on a Wrap-up will affect their traditional policy on a byline project where you have workers comp included not reporting payroll and they get audited by the state and it’s like, oh, I was supposed to actually do that. It is really interesting to see.
Rocio Luna: Now, that’s a great point too. I mean, here in California, Wraps, any claims that go on to the workers comp, it affects your X-mod. So on your X-mod, you’ll see your regular workers comp and then any Wrap that you participated in there. And then those claims will be under that specific policy.
Beau Lunceford: So one of the things that I want to ask about is, because we’re marrying two things right now in this conversation. Our last conversation that we had on the podcast was all about X-mod. That was the bread and butter. And now we’re spending a lot of time talking about just the way that a Wrap-up program is going to impact the way that you do, you oversee your risk management. How did you find yourself making that shift into where your focus used to be a lot more EMR based and now you’re still doing some of that, but you’re really sinking your teeth into the Wrap-up world?
Rocio Luna: So I had some knowledge about the Wraps and the claims just from my prior claims management, my experience. So I have dealt with seeing my subcontractors and get enrolled and do that process of it. But I think what really got me in, because obviously, X-mods are a big part of it when you’re bidding for the contract, you’re not going to hire the guy, the general contractor with the 1.02, you’re going to get the 82% guy or the 50%, whoever’s the lowest bidder. But obviously the rates are less. But now it’s seeing that transition because I think what happens is that people start connecting the dots. My X-mod need this to bid, so forth. Now going into like the larger space, the larger contractors, that’s all they deal with Wraps, OCIPs. And now I feel like my audience and maybe a lot of my posts have now are linking together because at the end of the day, it’s all kind of a big circle. I mean, we could even go into like the labor law issues and pollution’s not covered, just FYI. If anyone’s listening, that’s important to know. But there’s all these different things. I mean, don’t even talk about the builder’s risk because that’s a whole different subject besides, the Wraps and this.
Trevor Casey: I would love to kind of touch on the builder’s risk because that’s something that is a hot topic. I feel like a lot of people, they hear Wrap-Up and they think, oh, it’s just an included coverage that is part of it. They don’t really think about builder’s risk, especially on the owner or general contractor level if they’re less sophisticated in a Wrap-Up. So please educate us a little bit on what builder’s risk looks like.
Rocio Luna: Unfortunately, I actually had a deal with a general contractor late December and he called me and he told me about the incident that the building burnt down overnight. Like, it was probably halfway complete, just burnt down. They’re thinking it might have been like a fire. This project was in LA so they think it must have been a homeless encampment or some type of fire just connected. It was just completely burnt down. And obviously they had builder’s risk, but now knowing the claims that came out of it because there’s delays. There’s a lot of delays. There’s different things. There was a property, subcontractor’s property was damaged. There’s a lot of things that go into here. And now it’s really diving into seeing, making sure that your project is protected because here in California, there’s a lot of theft, especially in the LA area. Unfortunately, we do get hit a lot by people entering, stealing, and vandalizing the building. It sucks. And now with the fires, I mean, you already saw how California, unfortunately, we had a really bad fire up there. And honestly, that was the news for maybe three weeks straight. And now owners and contractors are kind of like, oh, shoot, I have to make sure that I have the builder’s risk. God forbid, maybe we’re also in California, so earthquakes are kind of prone. That’s another thing that kind of scares them in that sense. But with builder’s risk, you have to think about just your building and the property of it hard. That is just, if anything, any type of claim you were to get, theft, fire, flood, you want to make sure that’s protected. And then the liability comes into the sense of the Wrap, the OCIPs, in case one of your subcontractors causes damage to the project.
Trevor Casey: One of the things that you said I think is really interesting. So speaking of a story, we heard recently where a piece of equipment was stolen off of a project, which usually would be covered by your builder’s risk. However, it was hacked into and was controlled remotely by someone elsewhere. So it became an issue of how is this covered? Is it builder’s risk? It ended up being, it would be a cyber liability coverage because there was a computer involved that hacked into the piece of equipment. So I think it’s a really valid point to say, there are so many additional things that can go wrong on these large construction sites outside of just a hammer falling and hitting someone’s foot and breaking it. There are lots and fires and earthquakes. So having those additional layers of builder’s risk and pollution, professional liability, cyber, if it came down to it, is incredibly important to make sure you have a knowledgeable broker who really walks you through all of these things that could happen.
Beau Lunceford: Oh my gosh, that’s insane. Like, I’m just absolutely shell-shocked over here at the concept of this story of somebody hacking in.
Rocio Luna: It’s true, man. If you think about it, there’s a lot of technologies advancing that. So I could totally see that. Hijacking, I haven’t come across that. It’s usually someone from the inside and they plan it out, they flip the camera. I mean, when you see the videos and see all of this, you know it’s an inside job and it’s just crazy that people go to this extent. But you have to look at that because these things happen.
Trevor Casey: So, Rocio, you have flooded us again with another 20 plus minutes of incredible information. We’re definitely going to have to have you back for a third episode.
Beau Lunceford: For sure.
Trevor Casey: You are just an ever-flowing knowledge fountain. It’s incredible and I love it. But for sake of time, if you’re okay, I’d love to just kind of take a pause now and kind of ask you, one of the things we’ve been asking our guests recently on the episodes. In this industry, there’s a lot of different reasons of why people fall into insurance. And we just like to kind of pull on that and see why they fell into it, why they stay. Because there’s so many different people from different walks of life that are in this mixing pot and it’s a very large but small world. So it could be a quote, it could be a song, it could be a story, it could just be that you love insurance. But we’re just curious, what’s your inside insight? What makes Rocio tick?
Rocio Luna: Every day I’m learning something new. So I love helping my clients. I always think when I hear a sad situation, like yesterday I heard, actually I had a meeting of a crane operator and unfortunately, one of their subcontractors did not hook one of the metal pieces correctly and that fell on one of their employees and unfortunately that employee lost a leg. So they had to pay out $15 million in excess. It tapped into it. They had to pay out of pocket. It was totally bad. I mean, that’s how I got caught in because it’s one of those catastrophic situations, but it goes back into that thing that the mishandling of that subcontractor, but because it was their equipment and obviously their employee too, it goes back into them. And I think I stay here because there’s so many people out there that need help and I love being able to connect and say, this is what happened, like really diving into, we have to nail down this procedure to make sure this never happens again. And you are going to have incidents and you’re going to have black swan events like this. And I always tell people like the black swan is not as rare as you think. This company, same thing, 15 years, no claims. Everything was hunky-dory. And unfortunately, they just had this one time where they allowed their subcontractor to use their equipment, not sign the right documentation saying, hey, this person used the equipment for the day. They forgot to collect that. That one time they forgot was the one time they had that catastrophic claim. So I really like staying here and protecting, my clients to make sure. And then it’s another story. Because every day I’m learning something new. Every day I run into a new situation. Like today, I just learned that someone’s equipment got hijacked through the outside and it’s a cyber liability issue. I mean, honestly, like not many contractors carry cyber. So to think, imagine paying millions of dollars on a Wrap in the Marine and then it’s like, by the way, your claim is not covered because it got hijacked by someone outside. That’s going to upset them.
Beau Lunceford: Because it got cyber attacked. Oh my gosh, I may never actually recover from that story. That will haunt me.
Trevor Casey: Well, it is a good point. If you own relatively new equipment that has the ability to be operated remotely, definitely something to look into.
Rocio Luna: Yeah.
Beau Lunceford: This was such a great conversation. Is there anything else that you want to make sure that our listeners know before we sign off? Where can people find you? We’re going to include all your contact information in the show notes. We’ll be pushing this like crazy on LinkedIn so that people can see, so that you can share all the things. We can all celebrate how amazing you are. But before we go, do people need to know?
Rocio Luna: So before I go, and if you are looking into getting a Wrap, a GL only, OCIP, whatever it is, you guys have to reach out to CR Solutions. They are going to walk you down, be the best admin. And you guys already heard all of these things that go into a Wrap program, the admin, the certificate of insurance, making sure your subcontractors have the right insurance requirements. Just go directly here. You could go into their website. They have a bunch of information. You’ll see the size of the projects. And really having someone like that on the backend to support you is what you need. So that’s how I’ll end it.
Beau Lunceford: Well, Rocio, we did not expect that. That is very kind. Thank you so much.
Trevor Casey: The cheque will be in the mail.
Beau Lunceford: We’ll send you something afterwards. Thank you so much. Honestly, that’s very high praise coming from somebody who is working in Wrap so specifically now and is seeing all the things that go wrong and all the things that can go right that CR Solutions is somebody who’s on your radar for that. So thank you so much. This has been so much fun. We cannot wait to have you back again so that we can dig even more into some of the just depths of knowledge that you have that I can only imagine that we have not even begun to touch. Trevor, is there anything else that we need to do before we go?
Trevor Casey: I can’t think so.
Beau Lunceford: All right.
Trevor Casey: This has been awesome. Thank you again, Rocio. We appreciate it.
Rocio Luna: Bye. Thank you so much guys.
OUTRO (30:05 – 31:45)
Trevor Casey: What a good episode.
Beau Lunceford: I love talking to Rocio and I think that comes across in this conversation. I hope everybody really felt that, but Rocio is just so dang smart and like she just knows her stuff so well. Like last time, as you just heard, we talked about EMRs and all of those pieces and of course it wormed its way back into this conversation too. But I just loved digging into all this new stuff that she had to bring and I really hope that this sets the tone for how the rest of season three is going to go and we get to hear way more insights like this and all the conversations with these innovators that are within the construction and insurance space. It just got me really excited for what we have coming up.
Trevor Casey: Yeah, absolutely. And like you said, Rocio is constantly putting out content in just the sphere of everywhere, I guess you could say. So we want to make sure that our listeners are following her on social media primarily LinkedIn, Instagram. She’s putting out a lot of valuable content, not just written word content, but a lot of video and interactive content as well. So I feel like people are truly getting value from that and it really only takes 90 seconds of your day to watch a clip and learn something more. So Rocio, thank you so much for joining us again on the podcast. We’re excited for your future, the things that you’re continuing to do in this space and have a great year and thank you all for listening.
Beau Lunceford: Yeah, absolutely. We hope that you give Rocio all the credit that she’s due and we will see you next time on the Inside Insight podcast.
Trevor Casey: Until next time, stay covered.
PODCAST CLOSER
Thanks for tuning in to Inside Insight presented by CR Solutions. If you like anything that you heard today, subscribe, follow and rate the show so that other industry pioneers like yourself can find it. Maybe even share it with someone you think might benefit from this episode. Do you have a question that you want answered or a concept that you need explain, you can email us at info@c-r-solutions.com with the subject line “Podcast Question”, and maybe your question, we’ll make it onto one of our episodes. You can also submit a question via our website at c-r-solutions.com/podcast. There are no dumb questions, only opportunities to learn something new. Now that’s a wrap on this episode. Join us next time on Inside Insight presented by CR Solutions. Stay covered.
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